Listen now | In this episode, Matt and Angela, along with special guest Kate McNulty, dive into the complexities of autistic intimacy and relationships.
Kate’s comments (around 1:00 mark) linking queerness, kink, erotic exploration, safety, and consent hit me powerfully—in a good way. Alexithymia be damned, I was feeling feelings.
As a (very, lol) queer person, this particular one is a very rare feeling for me. I felt deep care and understanding for queer and Autistic experiences, not just theory. Kate gets it to their bones, I can see why so many of all ages are drawn to them.
I can't think of an equivalent experience where I felt so visible, held or so deeply understood, in any conversation about intimacy or identity. And this was on a podcast, not even face to face!! (or maybe that helped, IDK; Kate probably knows haha). I (and I suspect many others) need more of this type of understanding and care.
Thank you for giving me this experience, to know now what is possible, that being understood in complexity and held without overwhelming someone is possible.
By the way, I would also be so curious about their experience as an Autistic therapist, building capacity to co-regulate with people who come to see them, because that is a 'demand' in our formulation of 'low demand lifestyle'. Kate impresses as someone with undeniably high strength and skill, high confidence but low ego, they were able to express protest and critique systemic oppressive factors without reservation, name the relevance to the individual, but without escalating the distress, urgency or alarm. It was very much, more insight and information that didn't hit the panic button. How is that done? I would like to be able to do that as a communication skill! (I'd also still like to reserve the option to for discomfort/anger when I deem appropriate too haha)
This has to be one of my favorite episodes of the podcast so far, but also an incredibly difficult one to listen to as an Autistic straight cis guy in his late 20s with zero sexual and almost-zero romantic experience yet strong desire. I have two points I'd like to share that I really wish were touched on in this episode, but could be good for a follow-up at some point:
1. I'm curious on Angela's, Kate's, and Sami's takes on this, and I think I brought this up in the comments of a previous episode too, but I have noticed that a lot of Autistic women who are attracted to men seem to prefer to date non-Autistic men, and in my opinion, this is due to multiple factors including the lack of easily-accessible in-person infrastructure in place to help Autistic people meet each other, women being more likely to be diagnosed later in life, and higher levels of masking among Autistic women. As well as the dumb stereotype of Autistic men in particular being creeps or something that it seems even a lot of Autistic women believe.
2. I'm very curious about Matt's take on this as a therapist himself, but I think it's dumb that there is a therapy sub-category for every part of being in a sexual/romantic relationship except for helping people get into relationships in the first place, and a subcategory of therapists and/or social workers who specialize in connecting people to others with similar interests in desires both platonically and romantically/sexually is desperately needed.
on a completely unrelated tangent, Angela talking about having two different houses for different purposes came off as super out of touch since most people can't even afford to have one.
FYI: as an autistic woman, I realise almost every man I ever dated or has been attracted to was either undiagnosed autistic or had a strong constellation of autistic traits.
Is it a fact that Autistic women who are attracted to men tend to prefer non-Autistic men?
As a late-diagnosed Autistic woman who has felt pressured to mask a lot in order to survive from early childhood I can tell you that I have never in my life felt attracted to a neurotypical person, though I might have used other words to describe this before I was finally given the privilege to be recognized as Autistic.
I think it’s important to remember that nobody has any obligation at all to be into someone or to be available for someone, as frustrating as this can sometimes be. And I think everyone should be given the respect to be trusted that they know what they want and that their decisions are good decisions for them, whoever they choose to be with.
I do agree that it can be very difficult to find the people you truly vibe with.
I don't believe it's a universal fact (Angela herself is proof of that with her current spouse being Autistic) but at least in my experience both with people I've met irl and influencers I've come across online I have noticed a trend toward that.
Hey Zachary - I should have clarified if I didn't about having 2 houses. It was a significant financial burden, and it's not like I could afford it, but also, like, the alternative was giving up my kid or my husband, and I also didn't want that. Actually, more specifically, I had already DONE that! My husband and I got divorced and this was the condition of getting back together. So, I got a second job to pay for the second house. It was super stressful but not as bad as living with the two of them.
And the 2 houses were less nice than the one big house we had... One was actually just an apartment. I still know I was incredibly lucky to be able to do that, and it is really expensive, but it was a choice I was able to make. If I couldn't do that, I would have maybe built a yurt or gotten a camper van and put it in the backyard of our house.
Like it was NOT an option to live with both of them.
So I'm sorry if I didn't handle that right.
I don't have answers to your other question except to say I've dated a lot of Autistic people I met through shared special interests. It never occurred to me that Autistic men were creeps - like honestly, that didn't resonate with me at all. Nerds? 100%? But creeps? I don't get that.
Anyway, I dated band/music nerds, theatre geeks, and board game weirdos... that's where I met people and who I shagged before I met my husband. In my 20s, I was also tangentially in the kink scene, and they were all pretty nerdy, too, in a FetLife way. I don't know about creepy... Like, I GET that Neil Gaiman is creepy now - but I don't think I would have thought of him as creepy even if I was in a situation where I SHOULD have.
All that said, I wasn't very good at masking so maybe this is something the hot/manic pixie dream girl is more likely to think/experience. For me geeks and nerds and weirdos have always been where it's at!!!
I really liked the part where you talked about the two household situation. Though this particular solution might not be applicable to my life, it’s great to learn about what’s possible and to get inspired to find creative solutions.
Kate’s comments (around 1:00 mark) linking queerness, kink, erotic exploration, safety, and consent hit me powerfully—in a good way. Alexithymia be damned, I was feeling feelings.
As a (very, lol) queer person, this particular one is a very rare feeling for me. I felt deep care and understanding for queer and Autistic experiences, not just theory. Kate gets it to their bones, I can see why so many of all ages are drawn to them.
I can't think of an equivalent experience where I felt so visible, held or so deeply understood, in any conversation about intimacy or identity. And this was on a podcast, not even face to face!! (or maybe that helped, IDK; Kate probably knows haha). I (and I suspect many others) need more of this type of understanding and care.
Thank you for giving me this experience, to know now what is possible, that being understood in complexity and held without overwhelming someone is possible.
By the way, I would also be so curious about their experience as an Autistic therapist, building capacity to co-regulate with people who come to see them, because that is a 'demand' in our formulation of 'low demand lifestyle'. Kate impresses as someone with undeniably high strength and skill, high confidence but low ego, they were able to express protest and critique systemic oppressive factors without reservation, name the relevance to the individual, but without escalating the distress, urgency or alarm. It was very much, more insight and information that didn't hit the panic button. How is that done? I would like to be able to do that as a communication skill! (I'd also still like to reserve the option to for discomfort/anger when I deem appropriate too haha)
🤣🤣 #therockcollection needs its own hashtag 🤣🤣
This has to be one of my favorite episodes of the podcast so far, but also an incredibly difficult one to listen to as an Autistic straight cis guy in his late 20s with zero sexual and almost-zero romantic experience yet strong desire. I have two points I'd like to share that I really wish were touched on in this episode, but could be good for a follow-up at some point:
1. I'm curious on Angela's, Kate's, and Sami's takes on this, and I think I brought this up in the comments of a previous episode too, but I have noticed that a lot of Autistic women who are attracted to men seem to prefer to date non-Autistic men, and in my opinion, this is due to multiple factors including the lack of easily-accessible in-person infrastructure in place to help Autistic people meet each other, women being more likely to be diagnosed later in life, and higher levels of masking among Autistic women. As well as the dumb stereotype of Autistic men in particular being creeps or something that it seems even a lot of Autistic women believe.
2. I'm very curious about Matt's take on this as a therapist himself, but I think it's dumb that there is a therapy sub-category for every part of being in a sexual/romantic relationship except for helping people get into relationships in the first place, and a subcategory of therapists and/or social workers who specialize in connecting people to others with similar interests in desires both platonically and romantically/sexually is desperately needed.
on a completely unrelated tangent, Angela talking about having two different houses for different purposes came off as super out of touch since most people can't even afford to have one.
FYI: as an autistic woman, I realise almost every man I ever dated or has been attracted to was either undiagnosed autistic or had a strong constellation of autistic traits.
Is it a fact that Autistic women who are attracted to men tend to prefer non-Autistic men?
As a late-diagnosed Autistic woman who has felt pressured to mask a lot in order to survive from early childhood I can tell you that I have never in my life felt attracted to a neurotypical person, though I might have used other words to describe this before I was finally given the privilege to be recognized as Autistic.
I think it’s important to remember that nobody has any obligation at all to be into someone or to be available for someone, as frustrating as this can sometimes be. And I think everyone should be given the respect to be trusted that they know what they want and that their decisions are good decisions for them, whoever they choose to be with.
I do agree that it can be very difficult to find the people you truly vibe with.
I feel like most Autistics like other Autistics... I don't have a study to back it up or anything... I just feel like birds of a feather and all....
I don't believe it's a universal fact (Angela herself is proof of that with her current spouse being Autistic) but at least in my experience both with people I've met irl and influencers I've come across online I have noticed a trend toward that.
Hey Zachary - I should have clarified if I didn't about having 2 houses. It was a significant financial burden, and it's not like I could afford it, but also, like, the alternative was giving up my kid or my husband, and I also didn't want that. Actually, more specifically, I had already DONE that! My husband and I got divorced and this was the condition of getting back together. So, I got a second job to pay for the second house. It was super stressful but not as bad as living with the two of them.
And the 2 houses were less nice than the one big house we had... One was actually just an apartment. I still know I was incredibly lucky to be able to do that, and it is really expensive, but it was a choice I was able to make. If I couldn't do that, I would have maybe built a yurt or gotten a camper van and put it in the backyard of our house.
Like it was NOT an option to live with both of them.
So I'm sorry if I didn't handle that right.
I don't have answers to your other question except to say I've dated a lot of Autistic people I met through shared special interests. It never occurred to me that Autistic men were creeps - like honestly, that didn't resonate with me at all. Nerds? 100%? But creeps? I don't get that.
Anyway, I dated band/music nerds, theatre geeks, and board game weirdos... that's where I met people and who I shagged before I met my husband. In my 20s, I was also tangentially in the kink scene, and they were all pretty nerdy, too, in a FetLife way. I don't know about creepy... Like, I GET that Neil Gaiman is creepy now - but I don't think I would have thought of him as creepy even if I was in a situation where I SHOULD have.
All that said, I wasn't very good at masking so maybe this is something the hot/manic pixie dream girl is more likely to think/experience. For me geeks and nerds and weirdos have always been where it's at!!!
I really liked the part where you talked about the two household situation. Though this particular solution might not be applicable to my life, it’s great to learn about what’s possible and to get inspired to find creative solutions.