What is a low demand lifestyle? Is it actually possible to sleep? My brain doesn't know about this! Excited to listen to this podcast, hope I remember as au-dhd here so double prizes.
Think of it like this... what stresses you out, puts a high demand on your nervous system to deal with that stress. Your nervous system will generate cortisol and adrenaline to deal with it and you will get through the moment - maybe with or without a meltdown or shut down and then after you will have a crash as those hormones leave your body.
So just as an example, you are driving (or passengering) and a car pulls out in front of you and you think you are going to get hit, you know that spike of "OMG?" In a high-demand lifestyle that is happening all the time.
What makes it stressful for you isn't what makes it stressful for me. For instance, I have a weird vision thing. I can't pay attention to video. Everything always looks super dark to me. I have to have my brightness at a billion to see anything, so if I go to a play and there are strobe lights, it literally has no effect on me at all - it's low-demand. But my husband always has his brightness on 0 and if you walk into a room on Tuesday and then on Wednesday and the light dimmer has gone from 75% to 100% he will notice and lodge a complaint that the room is too bright. Strobe effects in a play will make him super tired after and I get to drive home. In a low-demand lifestyle, my husband would avoid strobe lights all together.
The first step to creating a low demand lifestyle is to identify what's high and low demand for you. That can be a process! Becca Lory Hector's Self-Defined Living course teaches how to do this if you don't know where to start.
Once you have defined it you need a plan to basically change a lot to everything about your life. Most people move (sometimes twice) to get it right. You will change your bedroom curtains, your shower tiles, your car, your job, your kid's school. So you can't do this overnight. It takes years. (About 5 for me).
Matt is amazing at building systems in his home. Peg boards to hung his mugs so he can see them all. Wall displays for all the different gaming systems. This makes his house very low demand because you are never looking for anything. His walls display everything you might need.
Again it's all about you and what works for you.
Oh, here's another one I was just doing before typing this. I listen to podcasts all day everyday. (Currently playing: Decoder Ring How "Chicken Soup" Sold its Soul.) My husband hates the non-stop sound of podcasts (understandable) so I bought 5 sets of headphones (for my bedroom, office, kitchen, living room, and my bathroom). On the wall of each room I just affixed this little plastic "pocket" and put headphones on the wall near the light switch in every room. It's a visual reminder not to listen to my podcasts on speakerphone (which is what I would do if I lived alone) if my husband is in the room, and it's always convenient to grab a pair of headphones. I also have one phone with lightning cable, one with USBc, and my computer has the regular microphone pin jack so I have 5 adapters (one in each pocket) so no matter which device I am listening on it will have the right headphone. All of this cost like $50 (I found a $15 pack of 5 headphones and then I got 2 3-packs of adapters for $20 and the little pockets were a 6-pack for $5) but it makes my life and my husbands (and therefore mine again) so much better.
Does this make sense?
In essence, it’s about consciously creating an environment that aligns with autistic needs rather than neurotypical standards.
Wow, thank you, that is such an informative and thoughtful and inspiring response! I am only quite recently diagnosed (think it was 2021) and still semi in denial/majorly high masking so haven't sufficiently begun the process of seriously accomodating or even understanding my own needs. Its v hard of course cos my life is very established and so difficult for all the usual reasons but your post is inspiring. I will at the very least get some ear plugs today as getting no sleep due to having misplaced them (ADHD part makes creating systems very challenging too!) and have been getting almost no sleep since. Partner falls asleep in under two minutes (wtaf) and then snores. Plus we have a still nursing toddler in our bed from 2am and he seems to take after me with the sleep issues! I'm going to start paying attention to this idea of demands and will look into the course you mentioned. I love your description of the process of going to sleep, I do similar things and it doesn't even always work so I'm just lying there alphabetising fiction writers or vegetables until the end of time. Wild that sleep isn't in the dsm! Thanks so much for your generous answer! I'm off to buy earplugs now 😅
I take sleep pills from Walmart to help me fall asleep. I have trouble with my head being loud while I’m trying to sleep bc I’m so tired but my body won’t fall asleep and I’m aware of it the whole time. I had no idea that could be connected to my autism. When I was younger I would start thinking about “how” to fall asleep and I’d get stuck thinking about that in detail so much on a loop. And I’m aware of every tiny movement on my body and every tiny itch that gets stronger if I don’t scratch it. Even though 90% of the time I’m pretty sure it was just my PDA brain battling my obsessive compulsions to scratch the imaginary itch. 🤷😅💙
Hi friends! What are your recommendations for sleep earplugs? Currently, I use Mack's ultra soft foam ones every night which block 33dB when they're fresh, but they wear out and have to be thrown away eventually. I know some folks like Loops. The most they block is 27dB for $50 a pair. Any other recs? Thanks!
Matttttt how do you know I have a fan, get out of my fan XD (I feel so called out xD)
Forgetting to breath is autistic ?! I'm gonna scream XD
When I was younger, I though I was an alien, because I wasn't making sense. Discovering the 10th Doctor was an epiphany because suddenly, I wasn't alone anymore. Each episodes of this podcast is like throwing a bucket of pure joy at my brain and I'm gonna do that a lot !
Oh for the sleep problem : I have a little box making the noise of a fan to cover the outside noise, then I have to put on my fan at 5 am to cover my mother's noise when she get up. Then I have to wake up often to put drops because dry eyes XD And I have to make a whole serie / fanfic in my head to go to sleep (usually Doctor Who or Good Omens) because I can't turn off my brain and if I don't make my brain goes to nice direction (Hello David Tennant and Michael Sheen) then I'm gonna think about Putin nuke my city. But if I think about something new to add to my stories, I won't sleep because I'll be afraid to forget it so I have to replay the same scenes again and again. XD And I'm annoyed by the feeling in my right shoulder and saddly I can't put the shoulder off.
For the low demand lifestyle... It's complicated because I am a freelancer and I already don't make a lot of money, not enough to have my own flat and get a less toxic environment, and I know a salary job would be too demanding to me.
Though 11 days who was the last observed by a doctor, Guinness states "Even Dr Dement later accepted that Randy Gardner - who was under constant medical supervision - probably experienced microsleeps."
Oh and to answer the question. Apnea and used to be insomnia now hypersomnia. Thank you CPAP, I sleep 6-7 hours a night and wake rested with no alarm. I don't know if the CPAP is psychological or physiological but it serves as a sleep trigger and I'm out within minutes. Still and incredibly light sleeper though, good thing I live in BFE. The last time I lived in town, I slept in the basement. Before getting my late Dx I had an experience that was quite similar to Angela's and now I live in the mountains of WA, changed careers (nurse now), and raise goats.
It's worth it. I did it years before figuring out who I was and only after having a complete and total breakdown. Since then, I make a whole lot less $$ but I also spend a whole lot less $$. That and location makes a HUGE difference in demand(s).
Great episode. I wanted to throw in what I also think is the primary driver of my garbage sleep. Those extra 2-3 hours I could be sleeping at night might be the only few hours of the day I get to have alone time. I'm trying to be more comfortable in my autistic traits around my family, but I am still self-conscious about how deep I go into my special interests, so I want to feel completely free to watch that 80th YouTube video on a topic or watch a comfort movie for the tenth time that week.
Also, I am terrified of the nights when I can't fall asleep, and that anxiety generally will keep me up even later than if I'd just stayed up until I couldn't hold my eyes open. The option that works, unfortunately, is to chemically bludgeon myself to sleep with any mix of melatonin, alcohol, weed, or Benadryl. Obviously that is not a sustainable path, but it works for me.
I’m a firm supporter of the bed on floor agenda (or low base like pallets or more) for myself because with under bed storage, out of sight-out of mind is too strong for me. I’ll put stuff under there and I’ll never ever see it again.
I’ve lost too many sweaters and knickknacks to the storage monster. Going 6-7 months of not seeing an item because the storage monster under the bed ate it, normally means get rid of it because I can go 6-7 months without even thinking of it. (I normally regret that)
I have always had sleep problems. Like Angela, 4-6 hours is a 'normal' sleep for me and I HATE mornings!!!!
My parents told me that when I was a baby, they learned not to try to put me to bed. They would let me play and crawl around on the floor, and when I decided I was sleepy, I would crawl over to the pillow and blanket in the corner and put myself to sleep.
Luckily, my dad is a "night owl," so when he was heading to bed (hours after Mum), he'd carefully pick me up and put me into my cot.
I'm a late identified AuDHDer... Thinking about dad's night-owlness is just ANOTHER clue to the genetics of neurodivergence.
On this note, my dad built a life that fit his natural sleep cycle by becoming a chef when I was about 4. He worked nights and it was PERFECT for him. He started at 4 pm, came home late, and slept late.
I'm in the process of trying to change my life to fit my sleep patterns better.
I too played the ABC categorical game for years to fall asleep and the only way I was able to move away from that and turn my brain off was by taking Lexapro. It was a game changer for me and after taking it I have about a 20 minute window before I need to go to sleep, If I can’t sleep and start playing the game I realize I missed a dose. It doesn’t have this effect on everyone. Many people take it in the day but for me it turns off my brain and I sleep amazing. I only take 5 mg and it is enough to give my brain rest
I have always had issues falling asleep. As a kid I taught myself to do a form of sleep meditation that helped but I still had some issues. These days I use a sleep mask with slim headphones built into it and I just listen to an audio book that I have listened to many times before. That seems to work well and keeps my mind from racing.
Once I'm asleep I generally sleep really well and will sleep through almost anything. But I'm always very slow to wake up and it is really hard to get out of bed. Been that way my whole life. I tend to need at least 9 hours of sleep to feel rested.
But an interesting thing is that my heartrate goes really low and flat when I sleep. Using a heartrate monitor, I can see the moment I go to sleep because my heartrate just drops like off a cliff down to the mid to low 40s. Then it just holds that level with almost no variation until I wake up in the morning when it shifts back to a more active level. A similar thing happens when I get into a flow state, my heartrate goes low and flat just like when I'm sleeping. Sometimes it tricks my heartrate monitor into thinking I fell asleep.
When I go for runs a similar thing happens. My heartrate goes up quickly, then levels off and basically just stays at a steady pace through the entire run with very little variation.
My dreams are also a bit different. I'm always aware that I'm dreaming and it always feels like I'm watching the dream as opposed to being in it. Because of this I often have some control over my dreams and when I dream my heartrate doesn't change regardless of what is happening in the dream. One time when I was feeling really stressed about a job interview, I had a really real feeling dream that felt like I was actually awake. It freaked me out because I knew what was happening couldn't be real so I used a lucid dreaming trick to wake myself up. It left me feeling really disturbed. But other than that time, the rest of my dreams always have me more as an observer as if I'm watching a movie from the perspective of the main character but not actually being the main character. One plus of this is that I never have nightmares because I just change the dream if it goes in a way I don't like.
I have searched online for people with similar sleep heartrate patterns and couldn't find any examples. I have always wondered if other Autistic people have similar sleep / heartrate patterns or not. As far as I know, this has been consistent my whole life.
What is a low demand lifestyle? Is it actually possible to sleep? My brain doesn't know about this! Excited to listen to this podcast, hope I remember as au-dhd here so double prizes.
Think of it like this... what stresses you out, puts a high demand on your nervous system to deal with that stress. Your nervous system will generate cortisol and adrenaline to deal with it and you will get through the moment - maybe with or without a meltdown or shut down and then after you will have a crash as those hormones leave your body.
So just as an example, you are driving (or passengering) and a car pulls out in front of you and you think you are going to get hit, you know that spike of "OMG?" In a high-demand lifestyle that is happening all the time.
What makes it stressful for you isn't what makes it stressful for me. For instance, I have a weird vision thing. I can't pay attention to video. Everything always looks super dark to me. I have to have my brightness at a billion to see anything, so if I go to a play and there are strobe lights, it literally has no effect on me at all - it's low-demand. But my husband always has his brightness on 0 and if you walk into a room on Tuesday and then on Wednesday and the light dimmer has gone from 75% to 100% he will notice and lodge a complaint that the room is too bright. Strobe effects in a play will make him super tired after and I get to drive home. In a low-demand lifestyle, my husband would avoid strobe lights all together.
The first step to creating a low demand lifestyle is to identify what's high and low demand for you. That can be a process! Becca Lory Hector's Self-Defined Living course teaches how to do this if you don't know where to start.
Once you have defined it you need a plan to basically change a lot to everything about your life. Most people move (sometimes twice) to get it right. You will change your bedroom curtains, your shower tiles, your car, your job, your kid's school. So you can't do this overnight. It takes years. (About 5 for me).
Matt is amazing at building systems in his home. Peg boards to hung his mugs so he can see them all. Wall displays for all the different gaming systems. This makes his house very low demand because you are never looking for anything. His walls display everything you might need.
Again it's all about you and what works for you.
Oh, here's another one I was just doing before typing this. I listen to podcasts all day everyday. (Currently playing: Decoder Ring How "Chicken Soup" Sold its Soul.) My husband hates the non-stop sound of podcasts (understandable) so I bought 5 sets of headphones (for my bedroom, office, kitchen, living room, and my bathroom). On the wall of each room I just affixed this little plastic "pocket" and put headphones on the wall near the light switch in every room. It's a visual reminder not to listen to my podcasts on speakerphone (which is what I would do if I lived alone) if my husband is in the room, and it's always convenient to grab a pair of headphones. I also have one phone with lightning cable, one with USBc, and my computer has the regular microphone pin jack so I have 5 adapters (one in each pocket) so no matter which device I am listening on it will have the right headphone. All of this cost like $50 (I found a $15 pack of 5 headphones and then I got 2 3-packs of adapters for $20 and the little pockets were a 6-pack for $5) but it makes my life and my husbands (and therefore mine again) so much better.
Does this make sense?
In essence, it’s about consciously creating an environment that aligns with autistic needs rather than neurotypical standards.
Wow, thank you, that is such an informative and thoughtful and inspiring response! I am only quite recently diagnosed (think it was 2021) and still semi in denial/majorly high masking so haven't sufficiently begun the process of seriously accomodating or even understanding my own needs. Its v hard of course cos my life is very established and so difficult for all the usual reasons but your post is inspiring. I will at the very least get some ear plugs today as getting no sleep due to having misplaced them (ADHD part makes creating systems very challenging too!) and have been getting almost no sleep since. Partner falls asleep in under two minutes (wtaf) and then snores. Plus we have a still nursing toddler in our bed from 2am and he seems to take after me with the sleep issues! I'm going to start paying attention to this idea of demands and will look into the course you mentioned. I love your description of the process of going to sleep, I do similar things and it doesn't even always work so I'm just lying there alphabetising fiction writers or vegetables until the end of time. Wild that sleep isn't in the dsm! Thanks so much for your generous answer! I'm off to buy earplugs now 😅
Listen it took me 7 years just to start figuring any of this out so you are WAY WAY ahead of me!
If you haven't seen my TEDx Talk check it out. I tell the story...
https://youtu.be/v-E45S7IDGE?si=1OT9_a7hgogJr7Cm
But I will say there is nothing wrong with alphabetising fiction writers until the end of time. It's one of my very favorite things to do... <3
Enjoy those ear plugs!
I take sleep pills from Walmart to help me fall asleep. I have trouble with my head being loud while I’m trying to sleep bc I’m so tired but my body won’t fall asleep and I’m aware of it the whole time. I had no idea that could be connected to my autism. When I was younger I would start thinking about “how” to fall asleep and I’d get stuck thinking about that in detail so much on a loop. And I’m aware of every tiny movement on my body and every tiny itch that gets stronger if I don’t scratch it. Even though 90% of the time I’m pretty sure it was just my PDA brain battling my obsessive compulsions to scratch the imaginary itch. 🤷😅💙
Hi friends! What are your recommendations for sleep earplugs? Currently, I use Mack's ultra soft foam ones every night which block 33dB when they're fresh, but they wear out and have to be thrown away eventually. I know some folks like Loops. The most they block is 27dB for $50 a pair. Any other recs? Thanks!
Matttttt how do you know I have a fan, get out of my fan XD (I feel so called out xD)
Forgetting to breath is autistic ?! I'm gonna scream XD
When I was younger, I though I was an alien, because I wasn't making sense. Discovering the 10th Doctor was an epiphany because suddenly, I wasn't alone anymore. Each episodes of this podcast is like throwing a bucket of pure joy at my brain and I'm gonna do that a lot !
Oh for the sleep problem : I have a little box making the noise of a fan to cover the outside noise, then I have to put on my fan at 5 am to cover my mother's noise when she get up. Then I have to wake up often to put drops because dry eyes XD And I have to make a whole serie / fanfic in my head to go to sleep (usually Doctor Who or Good Omens) because I can't turn off my brain and if I don't make my brain goes to nice direction (Hello David Tennant and Michael Sheen) then I'm gonna think about Putin nuke my city. But if I think about something new to add to my stories, I won't sleep because I'll be afraid to forget it so I have to replay the same scenes again and again. XD And I'm annoyed by the feeling in my right shoulder and saddly I can't put the shoulder off.
For the low demand lifestyle... It's complicated because I am a freelancer and I already don't make a lot of money, not enough to have my own flat and get a less toxic environment, and I know a salary job would be too demanding to me.
Michael Sheen is such a champion of the people. I love him so much.
You made me go down a rabbit hole less than 10 minutes in!
According to Guinness the record is 18 days 21 hours 40 minutes https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2023/1/whats-the-limit-to-how-long-a-human-can-stay-awake-733188
Though 11 days who was the last observed by a doctor, Guinness states "Even Dr Dement later accepted that Randy Gardner - who was under constant medical supervision - probably experienced microsleeps."
Oh and to answer the question. Apnea and used to be insomnia now hypersomnia. Thank you CPAP, I sleep 6-7 hours a night and wake rested with no alarm. I don't know if the CPAP is psychological or physiological but it serves as a sleep trigger and I'm out within minutes. Still and incredibly light sleeper though, good thing I live in BFE. The last time I lived in town, I slept in the basement. Before getting my late Dx I had an experience that was quite similar to Angela's and now I live in the mountains of WA, changed careers (nurse now), and raise goats.
Thank you for introducing me to the idea of a “low demand lifestyle.” I need this, and I’m going to have a big think about how I can get there.
It's worth it. I did it years before figuring out who I was and only after having a complete and total breakdown. Since then, I make a whole lot less $$ but I also spend a whole lot less $$. That and location makes a HUGE difference in demand(s).
Great episode. I wanted to throw in what I also think is the primary driver of my garbage sleep. Those extra 2-3 hours I could be sleeping at night might be the only few hours of the day I get to have alone time. I'm trying to be more comfortable in my autistic traits around my family, but I am still self-conscious about how deep I go into my special interests, so I want to feel completely free to watch that 80th YouTube video on a topic or watch a comfort movie for the tenth time that week.
Also, I am terrified of the nights when I can't fall asleep, and that anxiety generally will keep me up even later than if I'd just stayed up until I couldn't hold my eyes open. The option that works, unfortunately, is to chemically bludgeon myself to sleep with any mix of melatonin, alcohol, weed, or Benadryl. Obviously that is not a sustainable path, but it works for me.
I’m a firm supporter of the bed on floor agenda (or low base like pallets or more) for myself because with under bed storage, out of sight-out of mind is too strong for me. I’ll put stuff under there and I’ll never ever see it again.
I’ve lost too many sweaters and knickknacks to the storage monster. Going 6-7 months of not seeing an item because the storage monster under the bed ate it, normally means get rid of it because I can go 6-7 months without even thinking of it. (I normally regret that)
I have always had sleep problems. Like Angela, 4-6 hours is a 'normal' sleep for me and I HATE mornings!!!!
My parents told me that when I was a baby, they learned not to try to put me to bed. They would let me play and crawl around on the floor, and when I decided I was sleepy, I would crawl over to the pillow and blanket in the corner and put myself to sleep.
Luckily, my dad is a "night owl," so when he was heading to bed (hours after Mum), he'd carefully pick me up and put me into my cot.
I'm a late identified AuDHDer... Thinking about dad's night-owlness is just ANOTHER clue to the genetics of neurodivergence.
On this note, my dad built a life that fit his natural sleep cycle by becoming a chef when I was about 4. He worked nights and it was PERFECT for him. He started at 4 pm, came home late, and slept late.
I'm in the process of trying to change my life to fit my sleep patterns better.
I too played the ABC categorical game for years to fall asleep and the only way I was able to move away from that and turn my brain off was by taking Lexapro. It was a game changer for me and after taking it I have about a 20 minute window before I need to go to sleep, If I can’t sleep and start playing the game I realize I missed a dose. It doesn’t have this effect on everyone. Many people take it in the day but for me it turns off my brain and I sleep amazing. I only take 5 mg and it is enough to give my brain rest
I have always had issues falling asleep. As a kid I taught myself to do a form of sleep meditation that helped but I still had some issues. These days I use a sleep mask with slim headphones built into it and I just listen to an audio book that I have listened to many times before. That seems to work well and keeps my mind from racing.
Once I'm asleep I generally sleep really well and will sleep through almost anything. But I'm always very slow to wake up and it is really hard to get out of bed. Been that way my whole life. I tend to need at least 9 hours of sleep to feel rested.
But an interesting thing is that my heartrate goes really low and flat when I sleep. Using a heartrate monitor, I can see the moment I go to sleep because my heartrate just drops like off a cliff down to the mid to low 40s. Then it just holds that level with almost no variation until I wake up in the morning when it shifts back to a more active level. A similar thing happens when I get into a flow state, my heartrate goes low and flat just like when I'm sleeping. Sometimes it tricks my heartrate monitor into thinking I fell asleep.
When I go for runs a similar thing happens. My heartrate goes up quickly, then levels off and basically just stays at a steady pace through the entire run with very little variation.
My dreams are also a bit different. I'm always aware that I'm dreaming and it always feels like I'm watching the dream as opposed to being in it. Because of this I often have some control over my dreams and when I dream my heartrate doesn't change regardless of what is happening in the dream. One time when I was feeling really stressed about a job interview, I had a really real feeling dream that felt like I was actually awake. It freaked me out because I knew what was happening couldn't be real so I used a lucid dreaming trick to wake myself up. It left me feeling really disturbed. But other than that time, the rest of my dreams always have me more as an observer as if I'm watching a movie from the perspective of the main character but not actually being the main character. One plus of this is that I never have nightmares because I just change the dream if it goes in a way I don't like.
I have searched online for people with similar sleep heartrate patterns and couldn't find any examples. I have always wondered if other Autistic people have similar sleep / heartrate patterns or not. As far as I know, this has been consistent my whole life.